Favorite materials

[RobertCDF]

Post your favorite materials to work with and why.

Favorite decking: I love using Correct Deck (refered to as CD) CX thier hidden fastener system is a big time saver and it makes the deck look great. I like the durrablity of CD, you dont have to worry about damaging it while installing it.

Favorite rails: I like deckorators balusters to give the deck a nice change of pace from the regular old 2x2's pair them up with CD 2x4s & 4x4 and you have a nice solid railing system.

Favorite screws: GRK T-10 RT trim head screw. These are by far the best screws money can buy. They come in a coated and a stainless steel version. Driver bits get broken a little more than normal but they are very strong screws that work the way they are supposed to.

Favorite Framing lumber: ... I dont know yet all I know is I HATE ACQ! it freaking sucks. I cant wait for something like timbersil to make its way around. Anyone out there used timbersil in another state? If so please post a review on it.

Favorite lights: I like High Point deck lights. They install quickly and have some nice colors to work with.

[Andy Engel]

I can't speak to most of your questions, Robert, but there is some good news on the preservative front. ACQ seems to be in diminishing use. In my area, New England, MCQ or micronized copper quat, seems to have taken over. It's said to be less corrosive than ACQ.

The biggest caveat is that most of what I see is only treated to a .20 lb/ cu. ft. level, and so isn't rated for ground contact. There's a study published recently in the Forest Products Journal that suggests such low levels of treatment are only marginally better than no treatment when the wood is in ground contact.

Andy

[Bobby Parks]

Robert, I believe I understand where you're coming from on the ACQ thing. We used it for a couple of years and made the fastener and flashing allowances needed. We've been fortunate here in Georgia to have the MCQ available that Andy mentioned. We are actually able to have it treated to ground contact levels so it works well for us here. The interesting thing about the MCQ is that it really does not look treated. It looks alot like untreated yellow pine. I also like the Deckorator balusters We use them along with their designer baluster connectors which really sets off the railing. Look forweard to talking with you guys from time to time.

[Kim Katwijk]

Here's a little story at deck Expo early in the morning I made George Drummond and Rick Parish. As we sat discussed in advance of deck Expo George said he was looking at whether shield decking Rick said why would you want to use that. so I asked Rick what he was using? He answered Evergrain by tamko I asked him how long he had been using Evergrain his answer 11 years. I asked have you had any problems? no was his reply He then asked me what I was using? My reply Evergrain. he then asked how long have you been using Evergrain? I said about eight years. We then asked George he was using? he says Evergrain we both said why would you think of looking for anything else!

With that said has anyone used Luxra PVC decking? Yet. Please tell I understand that it's close to pros cell.

[Bayn Wood]

We have used Timber Tech for 5 years with just a few minor call back issues

I have heard alot about CD on all deck forums and we are interested to see how it compairs with TT

GRK T-10 screws are terrible to work with, you cannot use impact guns with them
we bought a 5 gallon box for a client with Elk Cross Timber deck that wanted to add a platform and set of steps to there deck in a condo complex. All the decks facia's in the complex are fasten with these screws are pulling through the facia
you can never pull the screw back out without the head striping I would like to send the 5 gallon box back to them they were expensive used 10 screws and gave up

The Timber Tech screws that come with their railings are great to work with
I am not sure what kind they are but we would strongly recomend them,
They are a star drive
By the way the cross timber deck board with grooved plank was ok but their plowed 2 x 4 railing system was impossible to work with

The TT Earth Wood Grooved planks look great but seem to scratch easy
We prefer their tongue & grooved floorizon plank

[Bobby Parks]

Kim, I have Luxrae on the way. I should have about a dozen lengths next week to play with. I'm hopeful that it is comparable to Pro Cell. It does not appear to be quite as dense if your looking at a cut end. The colors look pretty good and I feel that both of these products are headed in the right direction in terms of long term decking solutions for the customers. We'll build up some displays, run screws in it and basically give it a short term field test. We've used the Evergrain as well and have liked it.I'll let you know how it goes with the Luxrae. Barring any problems I plan to bring it online and I'll have a lot of it in the field by late Fall.

[Bobby Parks]

Bayn, That good information and feed back .Sharing info such as you have will help us as builders and let manufactuers know the areas they need to work on. This beats the old days where I can remember taking tight measurements on Trex and Chioce deck and then soaking them in a bucket to see if they soaked up water and swelled. I even drilled holes in pieces and checked them with a meat thermometer to see how hot they got after sitting on my dash board in the summer afternoon. Every things come a long way and sharing this info as I said this type of forum helps us all in that we are all field testing different products.

[RobertCDF]

GRK T-10 screws are terrible to work with, you cannot use impact guns with them
we bought a 5 gallon box for a client with Elk Cross Timber deck that wanted to add a platform and set of steps to there deck in a condo complex. All the decks facia's in the complex are fasten with these screws are pulling through the facia
you can never pull the screw back out without the head striping I would like to send the 5 gallon box back to them they were expensive used 10 screws and gave up



That is odd... But I glue all my fascia with a polyurathane glue and then screw it with the GRK's. I have zero complaints about the GRK's and neither do some of the other people who I have gotten hooked on them. As far as not being able to use impacts... I have 1 and use it very rarely I like the drill a lot more. It gives me more flexabilty and it drives screws faster than an impact. Plus I dont have to listen to all that racket... My guys like the drills better than the impact too.

[Kim Katwijk]

Are you hand screwing? Or do you use a screw gun? What type of screws are you using and in what type of material? I use a muro screw gun with their porcelain coated screws. I have to countersink the Evergrain decking this gives me the clean smooth finish look. I paint screwheads to match the color of the decking.

[Steve Bumpus]

Has anyone used the Cross Timber Decking with hidden fasteners? We have a dealer in town offering it at an excellent price point but I haven't had any experience with this product. Any comments?

[Bayn Wood]

We have used it only 1 time to add to existing cross timber deck in a condo complex that has the cross timber thoughout the complex and all the decks look terrible after only 2 years they are badly faded and all facia boards pulling through the screws, grain opening up, and the railing system is impossible to work with
We would recommend:
1) Correct Deck CX
2) Timber Tech T&G
3) Evergrain

[RobertCDF]

Has anyone used the Cross Timber Decking with hidden fasteners? We have a dealer in town offering it at an excellent price point but I haven't had any experience with this product. Any comments?

Oh how I hate that product. CD CX is so much better. The hollow boards are stupid and cut like crap, they also are impossible to snug down to a joist on the border. It scratches easy and the rail posts will ALWAYS come scratched.

[Bobby Parks]

Robert, I've never used the Cross Timbers here. I do like the products you mentioned. Procell is in my opinion, one of the tops products out there because it is a pvc based product and theres just not much that can go wrong with it that I'm aware of. You either like the look or you don't. I have used GEO with some success. MOstly I'm watching to see whats just around the corner. I belive we're close to really having some improved options in our market. I think its great you guys are providing your customers with some good alternatives.

[RobertCDF]

Robert, I've never used the Cross Timbers here. I do like the products you mentioned. Procell is in my opinion, one of the tops products out there because it is a pvc based product and theres just not much that can go wrong with it that I'm aware of. You either like the look or you don't. I have used GEO with some success. MOstly I'm watching to see whats just around the corner. I belive we're close to really having some improved options in our market. I think its great you guys are providing your customers with some good alternatives.

Lucky you! Avoid crosstimbers. I might even go as far to say that its worse than Trex and I HATE trex.

[DeckCreations]

I offer the following options to my customers, Ipe, WeatherBest, CorrectDeck, Trex, TimberTech and Fiberon. 85% of the time they will choose Ipe. While I think CorrectDeck is one of better composites few people like the appearance. Most all have heard about that Trex stuff and surprisingly few people could care less that there is recycled plastic in composite decking. I prefer Ipe. Recently I have come across several Trex decks that have undergone significant deterioration. Trex is paying to have them replaced. They say that there were some bad batches that came out of their Fernley, NV plant which has since been rectified.

I use Fastap screws for all the substructure assembly as I feel that they have one of the better coatings for carbon steel fasteners. Here we use pressure treated doug fir for the substructure both ACQ & CA-B. For attaching the decking and fascia I use the Senco trim head decking screw (coated carbon steel) with the Duraspin collated system for the bulk of the deck surface. I am a big proponent of predrilling and providing plenty of space between decking members. I am yet to be convinced with any of the hidden fastening systems so continue to surface fasten all decks. I predrill along a white chalk line and then come back and (try) to hit the predrilled hole with the Duraspin. Am not too bad of a shot.

Railing is typically 2x2 balusters with dado top/bottom subrail & caprail or SS cable railing.

Bill
www.deckcreations.com

[ctdecks]

have been a strong advocate of Ipe for years. recent improvments in composite products (specifically less recycled materails) have netted a far better altervative although no real price savings to the exotics, of course not everyone is a fit to Ipe. also like contrasting white pvc (azek) trim boards and fascia, and white solid hdpe railings. favorite compoistes would be evergrain and procell(azek).
like the new micronized copper treated wood but have concerns about rotting as retention is very low, still nice not looking at the same green color all the time

paul deck specialists inc manchester ct

[quattro]

Kim, I have Luxrae on the way. I should have about a dozen lengths next week to play with. I'm hopeful that it is comparable to Pro Cell. It does not appear to be quite as dense if your looking at a cut end. The colors look pretty good and I feel that both of these products are headed in the right direction in terms of long term decking solutions for the customers. We'll build up some displays, run screws in it and basically give it a short term field test. We've used the Evergrain as well and have liked it.I'll let you know how it goes with the Luxrae. Barring any problems I plan to bring it online and I'll have a lot of it in the field by late Fall.

Our Luxrae decking installed in July ‘07 severely faded by the end of that summer (even with the Luxshield "nanotechnology" and all). I’m looking for other people in Canada (esp. Toronto area) who shared a similar experience with the product. I purchased my deck through Hickory Dickory Decks, a major franchiser. So far, they’ve been cooperative, however, they haven’t wanted to take responsibility for the material they sold us claiming it’s the manufacturer’s responsibility. Now the manufacturer doesn’t seem to exist. So should consumers be left with an expensive faded deck… There has to be some consumer protection against this sort of situation (in Ontario — Unfair Practices - Consumer Protection Act, 2002). Hopefully, our governments are prepared for these types of situations in a global economy. I’ve heard of “implied” warranties whereby a dealer, by selling the product to the public, deems the product “fit for purpose”. I don’t think that they can completely indemnify themselves, regardless what they write in their warranty. If anyone has any experience in this type of situation, I’d love to hear about it.

[GardenStructureDotCom]

Quattro--

Sorry to hear about your composite deck that faded. Tom Jacques is the owner of that company. You may want to contact him directly. The composite companies often exclude fading from warrantees due to this inherant flaw. A good rule of thumb is to read the warranty and discover the exclusions. "The exclusions will contain the inherant flaws".

The other thing most of the composite companies do is exclude labor costs to remove and replace the defective materials.

This is the main reason the majority of our builders don't install composite.

When a composite company backs their warranty by agreeing to reimburse our builders for the labor--at that time you may find our builders using the materials.

You may want to check out this article http://www.gardenstructure.com/composite_decking.html

[GardenStructureDotCom]

Anything but composite. Try Tigerdeck, (kiln dried hardwood). Red Cedar, Redwood, Cypress... all great materials that will outlast the frame normally.

You Composite only builders are nuts. Russian Roulette has better odds for business success than composite.

You would knowingly install decking that the companies producing it won't actually warranty or pay to replace defective material?

It is right there in the warranty.

They will not cover the cost to dispose of, removal or replacement.

Mold is excluded

You get 20% of the profit... which you pay your expenses on, and then you are on your own when it comes to warranty. This pits you against your customer.

Say, you design and build a gorgeous deck and use a leading composite on it. YOUR CUSTOMER loves it initially, but 3 months later, mold spots everwhere... and the ends of the boards are coming apart.

The composite company says they don't warranty mold--they tell you it is an environmental issue and mold is everywhere. They tell you it has nothing to do with sugar from recycled pop bottles or recycled spruce fiber within the decking that the supposed mold is feeding on.

Labor is excluded from the warranty--no coverage. You work for free.... Slave Labor for the company to protect your rep.

You can either replace the deck from your own wallet... or get maligned to the hundreds of people that unhappy customer will preach your demise to.

How is this fair?

That is a bad deal.

READ THE WARRANTY PEOPLE! Go into this with your eyes open.

There is no recouping losses due to stupidity.

L

[ctdecks]

Ipe is by far the best outdoor materails but diffiuclt to work with, evergrain compoiste is one of the better ones, i also think the cellular PVC boards are easy to work with and have their place. there is also nothin wrong with a treated deck if sanded and sealed properly

[Bobby Parks]

I think along the same lines as you Paul. The key is to not have too many eggs in one basket.

As crazy as it may sound I don't use pt decking down here anymore because of the 20 years of experinec watchuing what the Georgia sun does to it and I'm not in to the maintenance program that others are. Nothing wrong with that as it can be a business within itself.

I love the hardwoods (Ipe, Cumaru, Tigerwood, Garapa etc). You just can't go wrong with these unless you're using hidden faqstening systems that come back to bite you.

I like the Azeks, Sensibuilt, Trex Escapes, and Fiber Composites Horizons in terms of performance qualities. Some of the previously listed products don't have a real history yet but the technologies are there.

Evergrain has been the industry work horse in my opinion in terms of long term reliabilty and expectations when it comes to wood flour composites.

There's no doubt if you jumped on everything out there and believed everything you're told about decking products you could dig your own grave.

For years I was into managing and delivering a large volume of decks.

Now I've tried to slow it down and offer what I consider proven or what I consider to be premium options. It allows for long term customer satisfaction, long term referrals, and very little warranty work.


The big exception to this is if you screw up and use a product that fails and taints your name and market as a result.

The key is to provide a short list of options or highly qualify the realities of a given product if the customer is the one driving the option of something other than what you reccomend..

Just an opinion

Bobby Parks

[ArtDeck-O]

Anything but composite. Try Tigerdeck, (kiln dried hardwood). Red Cedar, Redwood, Cypress... all great materials that will outlast the frame normally.

You Composite only builders are nuts. Russian Roulette has better odds for business success than composite.

You would knowingly install decking that the companies producing it won't actually warranty or pay to replace defective material?

It is right there in the warranty.

They will not cover the cost to dispose of, removal or replacement.

Mold is excluded

You get 20% of the profit... which you pay your expenses on, and then you are on your own when it comes to warranty. This pits you against your customer.

Say, you design and build a gorgeous deck and use a leading composite on it. YOUR CUSTOMER loves it initially, but 3 months later, mold spots everwhere... and the ends of the boards are coming apart.

The composite company says they don't warranty mold--they tell you it is an environmental issue and mold is everywhere. They tell you it has nothing to do with sugar from recycled pop bottles or recycled spruce fiber within the decking that the supposed mold is feeding on.

Labor is excluded from the warranty--no coverage. You work for free.... Slave Labor for the company to protect your rep.

You can either replace the deck from your own wallet... or get maligned to the hundreds of people that unhappy customer will preach your demise to.

How is this fair?

That is a bad deal.

READ THE WARRANTY PEOPLE! Go into this with your eyes open.

There is no recouping losses due to stupidity.

L

Ipe beats ALL composites and is cheaper than most if you use 1x decking. Best looking product, most consistent and virtually indestrucible. We no longer use any composite [we've only built 3 comjposite decks, ever].

I can't imagine anyone wanting a product more than real hardwood decking.

[ctdecks]

Ipe lover here.

[thedeckbarn]

we used cross timbers on 5 decks 5 years ago. The supplier didn't have all the parts as promised. By the time they .05 and .10 you to death the cost were way out of line. We were charging around 40 sq ft and barely made any money. i don't put it down any more. way over priced as i see it,
steve scholl www.killerdecks.com

[thedeckbarn]

I use Newtech wood composite decking, I actually sell it and install it. It is made from Plastic and Rice Hulls. no wood fillers has hidden fastening clips. Had 1 call back in 700 decks in 4 years.
I use cedar on most of the rails along with dextrusions brand aluminum balusters. 60603 aircraft aluminum and powder coated, same warranty as deckorators. No issues, installed on 700 decks in 4 years and sold to 1,399 customers in the last 2 years.
I use Aurora light on almost all the decks i build as well as innovative led lights for the steps. no call backs
Treated wood i use micro pro for all the framing, 2x6 and 5/4x6 in pon pine, 2x8,10 and 12 syp. all the timbers are cca 4x4, 4x6, 6x6
I won't use grk screws as I think they are way over priced.
Steve Scholl
www.thedeckbarn.com

[Patiosclotures]

Cedar is an excellent decking building material. It’s regarded as a premium type material.

[L Rayo X]

This is a re-post of a thread I started in the design forum, but this one seems more appropriate... here it goes.
Greetings to all... I'm a GC in Sebastopol, CA. Business has been slow so I am closing in on the completion of a total rebuild of my own home. My local lumber yard has sold it's soul to Trex - they no longer stock anything else - and wants to sell me a Trex product for $2.95/lf. An out of town lumber yard is closing out their line of GAF-Elk Crosstimbers for $1.29/lf. I need enough decking such that the savings would exceed $5,000. I'm looking for some feedback on the GAF product. I've seen the YouTube video showing a splotchy reaction to sunlight but would like to have feedback from professionals such as yourselves. Thanks ahead of time for your interest.