why are we building handrail to a 500 pounds side load

[Kim Katwijk]

YES let's check our insanity! engineers at Virginia Tech can can test how to attach railing post that will withstand a 500 pound continuous tests load. But someone has to ask what is a guard rail really for? And how in its use and what circumstances in its intended use would have a continuous pressure of 200 pounds let alone 500 pounds. YES 500 pounds reality check. I am going to say that our job as a industry is to raise the level of quality workmanship not to kill it with engineering marvels. Having torn apart thousands of decks with railing attached to them. if there was going to be a problem with railings it would be the homeowner or the and inexperienced handyman. That has towed nailed the post to the top of a deck or other deplorable building techniques. I would wager to say every accident from a railing collapse has not been from common building practices within the industry. The second most common failure would be from poor maintenance where the railing has become so loose or has rot in. So here's a real problem one railing fails and someone gets injured everyone gets painted with a broad brush even though no one states why this railing failed. legislators code writers and engineers jump at the opportunity to show or write new laws and codes that is put upon us deck building professionals that have been building quality handrails for years. And that's the way I see it.

[Bobby Parks]

Its funny you're talking about this. I communicated with someone this morning on the subject. As Kim indicated we've been building basically the same way using pretty good techniques that have proven to work well, Even if you structured the rail post to withstand 500 pounds, what about the other rail connections? There are alot of alternative rail systems out there that probably would not pass this test where the horizontal rail connects to the post.I for one would not be happy to see some change occur for the wrong reason and create additional cost for us, therefore the customer.customer. We are experiencing increased cost in enough areas alraedy such as hardware and out of control Workmans Comp. What is the real motive behind lobbying for this code change?

[Bayn Wood]

We always recess the posts for are railings inside of the rim joist and up against 1 of the support joists and completly block the post in with joist blocking

I don't like it when i see the posts notched and on the outside of the rim joist and bolted with lags or carriage bolts

With the railing posts inside of the rim joist we can just block the posts in, and nail with 16d and they seem to support great

[Andy Engel]

One reason the engineers would give for the 500 lb sideload is exactly what Kim points out: Rot and poor maintenance. By overbuilding, you have some assurance that the rail will perform adequately for some time despite operator error.

[Kim Katwijk]

Brian it has been my experience. that in my area blocking and placing the posts inside the rim joists will vastly accelerate rot process. By creating what I call collection zones where they trap hold dirt and moisture. I think it is important that you design based on your geographical weather conditions over on Eastern Washington this would not be an issue but in Western Washington it is a big concern. When you tear old decks apart what and where do you find rot what mechanical conditions are present were rot is most prevalent. These mechanical conditions would be two boards sandwiched together, a large bolt holding two pieces together. Let me know what your experience is and where you find rot. This is a subject I have written extensively about but only Have experience in my own geographical area.

[Bayn Wood]

We are in Michigan burbs of detroit and from are experience removing old decks is

1) Ledger board rot - A) no flashing B) low to grade deck with little air ventilation

2) Poor Maintance - Decking rotted Again mostly on low to grade decks with little air movement the area

3) I have seen at the base of the railing posts in the decking/framing area rotted out posts This seems to be the area Mr. Katwijk that you are refering to
You bring a valid point about future water drainage issues
Do you have a typical railing post attachment you use?

In the new artical about the 500 pound side load and the new ledger codes it seems they are calling for posts to be blocked in with a ledger lock bracket and carriage bolts

Which in my experience alot of these codes are championed by hardware makers

We had a building inspector give us a hard time about stringer attachments to the deck. The inspector was requiring a simpson hanger for the stringer/deck attachment. After I had said to inspector we have built decks for years and framed houses before that and I have never seen stringers with hangers His reply was simpson sent all the local inspectors to seminar and this was where he got this from To me this seems like conflict of interest

Similar to the artical about the new railing and ledger requirements there seems to be alot about the DeckLoc bracket

[Kim Katwijk]

Bayn
you are absolutely right but it is a great marketing plan for Simpsons. I'm glad you have noticed. it is nice to know that there is an association NADRA at have people sitting on the CCI board representing the deck builder. If you're not a member you should consider joining. You can find out more at www.NADRA.org

So Bayn how are you attaching your ledger to prevent these common problems?What are you doing to provide more ventilation on low level decks?

I am assuming the stringers you are talking about are for stairs I call them
" stair jacks "

[Bob Fogarty]

I am currently bidding a large project for a Landscape Architect Company. When I met the Architect on the job site I was suprised to see that the deck was one that I had turned down some eight years earlier. This deck is approximately 5,000 sq ft of ipe about 10 feet above the ground. It is 5/4x6 deck boards that were drilled for plugs but they were never installed. The joist are 2x12 CCA as is the beams. Now here is the interesting part the 2x12 beams are sandwiching a 4x4 post. The only support this deck has is the bolts and some of the 4x4 posts have four bolts through them. This makes me nevous just being under it. Did I mention the entire deck squeeks with every step one takes?

[Bobby Parks]

Bob, thats kind of interesting. It appears that the effort was made to structure the main deck , (beams and joist) properly but then failed to support it adequately from a column standpoint. 5000 sf is pretty large by any one's standards and potentially would bear a tremendous amount of weight when occupied. I guess we're both wandering why someone would go to the expense of using Ipe and 2x12 framing and then skimp on the columns. I 've known that some people have the school of thought to use 4x4s on low decks, 4x6s on decks to a mid level and then use 6x6s only after 10' high. I think its a good idea to use 6x6s with a 3" notch to fully recieve a doubled beam (2x10 under most circumstances) depending on column spacing,and then double bolt with 1/2" bolts. This allows for full wood to wood bearing and the 1/2" bolt strength of which my understanding is around 700' lbs each before shear cpacity is reached . Depends on where you read info or charts. From what you mentioned depending on the column spacing and number of bolts used, not only are the columns undersized but the shear factor due to bolt vs weight factor is in question. Are you looking at re working this job? Bobby

[Bayn Wood]

Bayn
you are absolutely right but it is a great marketing plan for Simpsons. I'm glad you have noticed. it is nice to know that there is an association NADRA at have people sitting on the CCI board representing the deck builder. If you're not a member you should consider joining. You can find out more at www.NADRA.org

So Bayn how are you attaching your ledger to prevent these common problems?What are you doing to provide more ventilation on low level decks?

I am assuming the stringers you are talking about are for stairs I call them
" stair jacks "

Kim I am not a member of NADRA could you tell me some of the benfits

Also to answer you questions we use Pro Trim Vinyl Ledger Lock flashing for ledger connections

We try to recommend stamped concrete to all our deck / patio customers with patio areas under 24" or lower to grade
Stamped Concrete is very big here and it is only $7.00 to $9.00 a sq. ft. in comparison to Treated wood deck starting at $16.00 a sq. ft. most customers go with concrete

Stringers = stair joist, stair jacks

One last thing It would be great to have NADRA Get some conversation going with the industry suppliers for proper certifacation to install there products instead of just over the phone yeah you can be certified

Thank you
Bayn

[Mike K]

It is easy to think that a 200# lateral load capability should suffice for railings...until one does the math of the load a person falling or stumbling into a rail creates.

Basically put, a 200# person moving at 2.5 mph (approximate walking speed) creates 733# of force (Force = mass x acceleration)...even a 55# child at that speed creates 201#. So, imagine somebody tripping on a table leg and falling into the railing of a second story deck at 3 mph. Now suppose the railing has been built to withstand 200#. If that person weighs, say 175#, they will be putting 770# of lateral load onto the railing. Personally, I wouldn't want to be that person potentially looking at a 18'-20' fall.

Now, we all realize that numbers don't always represent real-life scenarios, but the reality is numbers don't lie and codes are meant to provide sound and safe construction methods.

[John Hyatt]

One thing I agree with there is a total bypass with cross ventalation on low leval decks or any deck with solid skirting.

I do not agree>>> installing rail posts in the frame will cause rot<<< or thats it better to noch or just bolt them to the rim Because>>> Say with an Ipe project,my very own fav, 4x4 .40 pt posts installed with construstion adhesive,blocked in,tacked with ring shank gun nails,backed up with SS screws. Ipe post wraps installed with CA/SS screws = GunSmoke second leval Bar Fight cant hurt them.

I have projects out 10 years or so done this very way with no rot going on at all...With the given 10 years ago we were using cca,ok Im good with that how bout 5 years using acq...same deal they are as strong as the day I put them in. There is no maintaince needed for this install,no bolt tighting,no finish, no getting down there and looking at it,no Nada.

Now will it take 500 lbs,,Im good with that too bring on that 500 lb test and stack it up to any other rail system. John

[Kim Katwijk]

Mark K your numbers might be right. But this is only a momentary shock so you would you test it with continual pressure?

[Mike K]

Kim- you are correct that the examples do represent as you called it "shock" or impact loads. This represents the real life situations that handrails (or as the code books call them "Guard rails". Most all testing is done with a gradually increasing load in order to measure the point at which a particular design or structure will fail. This helps establish the design criteria of a particular railing and/or test a particular product or design's load capacity.

Regardless of how the load is applied, either gradually increasing or instantaneously, a load is a load and the structure should be up to the task of withstanding the stress. Plus a sudden or impact load can do as much if not more damage to a structure than a gradually increasing load so the high numbers being required are meant to withstand any "reasonable" real life scenaroi.